WILLYARD: ASD News to Use

by Jennifer Willyard and Rebecca Fullerton

With recent events being as they are within the Armstrong School District, there has been a lot of information offered for/from people on both sides of the fence in regard to some very pressing and pertinent issues presented during our school board meetings. However, not everyone is able to attend the meetings, so the only information they are getting is either in the newspapers or online or word of mouth.

This editorial will be dedicated to getting the real issues and facts out there for what we feel ARE the majority of the taxpayers in the district.

We have some statistics to offer you, and if you were at the ASD board meeting on Feb. 22nd, you might have heard Jen state this, but we think it is important enough that it bears repeating.

In December, the ASD school board passed a resolution to have the ability to raise our taxes 2.26 mils for the 2010-2011 school year. That is a potential increase to the residents of ASD in a county that has a population where 18.4% are age 65+, has one of the highest unemployment rates in the state at 10.1% and as of the last study in 2008, ASD had an enrollment of 5,865 students of which 16.5% lived in a family that was below the poverty level and 44% received either reduced or free lunches. Those numbers show what type of economic climate we are living in here in Armstrong County.
Everyone in this county knows somebody that is elderly, whether it is their parents, grandparents, neighbor, aunt or uncle.

Everyone in this county knows somebody that, in the past few years, has had to rob Peter to pay Paul and is having a difficult time running from that giant snowball of bills.

Everyone in the county knows a family that is hard working, has great kids, willing to give the shirt off their back, but are losing the battle to make ends meet.

Inflation continues to rise, but most paychecks are not rising with that inflation rate. That is if you are lucky enough to have a job right now.
Everyone that we know lives on a budget or at least tries very hard to. Why is ASD different from anyone else?

When a public company wants to expand their product line, they need to look at the demand, look at their finances and they also have to answer to the stakeholders of the company.

Aren’t we, the taxpayers of ASD the stakeholders? Shouldn’t we have a say in how money is spent in our district?

Shouldn’t we have the ability to let the Directors that represent our regions know how we feel about things?

Shouldn’t there be an open line of communication other than a comment section of the newspapers to get points across?

Shouldn’t there be an open line of communication at the board meetings without yelling or harassment?

Director Rearic raised an excellent challenge the other night. Each director holds a Town Hall meeting in their respective regions to find out how the residents feel about things that are going on.

We double dare each of the directors to take on this challenge and we urge all of you that are reading this to contact your region’s director and ask for the same!

Furthermore, we urge everyone to be informed of the issues in your own community, especially the ones where your vote counts. Read the newspaper, search items online, talk to your neighbors, call or email your representative, go to council and board meetings, ask questions and get involved. Volunteerism is at an all time low in just about every area.
Everyone needs to form their own opinion on the goings on of our school board. In forming your own opinion, this is where the internet can be your best friend. Here are just a few of the websites that we have found very valuable in our research:
www.asd.k12.pa.us is Armstrong School District

www.pde.state.pa.us is Pennsylvania Department of Education

www.psba.org Pennsylvania School Board Association

www.sunshinereview.org Standard for Government Transparency

www.asd-news.com This site was run by a former board director of ASD. This week, some concerned and informed people took over the site and are about to reconstruct it by adding to the content and giving it a new format.
Until next time, stay informed!!!!

categories Editorial | February 26, 2010

  • By youngermoreintelligentman, February 26, 2010 @ 7:06 AM

    Is anyone aware of how many years and how many times Solak has been given the chance to clean up is bad attitude toward the administration and students of ASD? It is time to stop the complaining and organize the plan to remove Solak and his regime from the school board. Willyard(Superwoman)for ASD School Board!

  • By reed619, February 26, 2010 @ 7:10 AM

    Thank you ladies!!! Well said!!

  • By kwiss4, February 26, 2010 @ 8:43 AM

    I have a bigger challenge for the school board. There should be 4 town hall meetings one in each of the highschools. All board members must attend, and must only listen.Only people from those areas can attend the meeting. Put a time limit on the meeting and allow people to only speak for 5 minutes,if they run over someone will have to say politely your time is up. If a speaker is rude or disrespectful to ANY board director they will be asked to leave the podium. Every tax payers voice counts, not just the ones you choose to hear. I will say it again we are a single school district and the board directors need to not only hear from all but listen. Even if they have different points of view.I am for change, but not change that negatively impacts one area of the school district to boost another.

  • By bweitzel, February 26, 2010 @ 9:22 AM

    BRAVO! Great information.

  • By Jen16226, February 26, 2010 @ 10:30 AM

    Great thought KSwiss!!!!

  • By Jen16226, February 26, 2010 @ 10:37 AM

    Absolutely YMIM…….everyone needs to start holding their Directors to be more accountable for everything…..what the long range plans are, their voting records, and how they behave.

  • By jmccanna, February 26, 2010 @ 10:37 AM

    Good job ladies, keep up the good work.

  • By reed619, February 26, 2010 @ 10:38 AM

    I agree for the most part Kwiss, but the board directors must also refrain from being rude and disrespectful to the speakers, as well as to the administration, which was evidenced by a board director at the open caucus meeting on Monday night. The video footage can be viewed at http://www.youtube.com/user/HERCasd

  • By concerned citizen, February 26, 2010 @ 10:48 AM

    Everyone is very concerned with taxes going up in the ASD as am I. Here’s some first year teacher salaries in our area.

    Armstrong $40,143
    Freeport $31,400 (blue ribbon school)
    Karns City $33,347
    Brookville $30,981
    Fox Chapel $39,200
    Senaca Valley $37,000
    Leechburg $38,900

    Jennifer is 100% correct and we should be concerned about our aging population, high free and reduced lunch %, high unemployment rate, and 16% poverty level for the students, not to mention the inadequate test scores.

    To quote Jennifer, “Why is ASD different?”

    Where is the outrage over teacher salaries?

    We can’t be fiscally conservative in one area and not the other.

    Also, listening with an open mind has made me realize that we should keep Elderton closed, but a new super school should be out of the question, based on all of the above information that Jennifer has supplied.

    My hope is these same tax aware citizens remain conservative in the future.

  • By kwiss4, February 26, 2010 @ 12:26 PM

    I never supported the closure of Elderton, and so you don’t think I am pinning for the old days, I did not attend any school in Armstrong county.What a school looks like on the outside does not reflect the function of the school on the inside. I believe before anymore of the building issues are addressed, the education of the students needs to be addressed.I transfered my kids to Elderton when they first started school.Like many people around here we didn’t live near the school our children were to attend.I am not convinced (even after 2yrs of this craziness) that the reasons given to close Elderton truly hold water. I am not opposed to having a rational discussion with someone about all the issues this district is facing, but I don’t want to have a discussion that involves name calling and disrespect of anyone.

  • By Jan, February 26, 2010 @ 12:46 PM

    Here is something to think about and it would be great to have an answer. Why is it that when one attends a school board meeting they can discuss an issue but no one can ask a question of the board? Why is that? If questions can’t be answered at a board meeting and the school directors won’t answer letters or emails or monitor their phones– how is it that we are to get some answers to our concerns? Are they that isolated that while they represent “we the people” they don’t have to provide answers to very important questions. I find this absurd.
    I also think the idea of having a meeting in all attendance areas with every director is an excellent idea— it will never happen. When Solak is out of his own little world he clams up and lowers his eyes so not to make contact with anyone. I’ve seen that look a million times.

  • By Bolt Upright, February 26, 2010 @ 1:09 PM

    Great editorial. Keep up the good work.

  • By Jen16226, February 26, 2010 @ 1:11 PM

    CC…….You are right….everyone in these times SHOULD be conservative, because as I said, prices of everything is going up except peoples paychecks.
    I have had to learn the hard way to try to be conservative and my family still does struggle sometimes because my husband works a seasonal job and between us we have 5 children. If we don’t try to save where we have to, we are dead in the water.
    Perhaps Becky can come and offer insight to the teachers salaries.

    KSwiss….I did not attend school here either,so that doesn’t concern me, however by the same token I also don’t want it falling in on anyone either(remember the balcony at FCHS?).

    I truly hope that the Directors will have town hall meetings. All that has happened is finger pointing but nobody is offering any type of solution. Being a board member in order to help a fellow member is not what it should be about, nor should a person be a board member for the sole purpose of opening or closing a school……it should be a blend of giving those kids the best education possible BUT at the same time making it affordable for ALL of the taxpayers.

  • By kwiss4, February 26, 2010 @ 1:46 PM

    I couldn’t agree more, I too would like to know why the teachers salaries are so high, especially starting salaries. I am hopeful that there is a middle ground somewhere in this district.

  • By kwiss4, February 26, 2010 @ 1:50 PM

    I think it is evident that the building is not crumbling down. A little chilly but not falling down.

  • By Delzer, February 26, 2010 @ 2:50 PM

    Concerned Citizen what would you like to pay a new teacher with a college degree? What would you pay me a teacher with 17 years of experience?Our pay always comes to the surface when we start a discussion about the school district. My husband started out with a bachelor’s degree and made $40,000 thirteen years ago. I would also like to know where your info came from because I would like to know what these districts have as ending salaries. Our salaries only seem high because we ( teachers) are compared to everyone in the county. Try comparing our salaries to those who have a 4 year college degree and you will not find such a vast difference. Compare apples to apples! I am also open to any ideas you have on how teachers could be paid without using property taxes since we (teachers) pay these taxes too. I am glad to hear you support Elderton remaing closed. I am also in agreement that a super school ( if you could call it that)
    does not need to be built any time soon. We need to show growth in our county before we start building a new high school.

  • By rfullerton, February 26, 2010 @ 3:17 PM

    Well a balconey did fall…………I see the list of teacher salaries above and am fairly sure they are not accurate to date but will definitely look into those. On the other hand, are those really high starting salaries for professionals who seek further education to better themselves and who have the responsibility of education your children?? Look at the starting salaries in other professions. Are teacher salaries so different? In many cases the teacher salaries are lower than other higher education jobs (for some they are higher). There are technical positions for people (who have not gone to college) that start much higher than teachers and I know many construction workers who do better, so are the salaries really out of line?

  • By rfullerton, February 26, 2010 @ 3:39 PM

    Just a tidbit from the Valley News in case you don’t subscribe:
    Lance: To the Armstrong School Board majority faction. Get ready to duck, Armstrong taxpayers. The board is preparing to stick you with a bill upward of $25 million to make sure Elderton High School remains open for a long time. Directors this week talked to architectural firms and a bond counsel about renovating the decrepit Elderton High, which was wisely closed after 2008-09 school year, but will be reopened next fall by the new majority.

    This is on top of the half-million dollars it will cost to make Elderton habitable in August, $400,00 for technology and whatever millions it will take to hire teachers, custodians, etc. All of this for a school that will be graduating 40 to 45 students in a few years. Amazing.

    This is misfeasance of the highest order. The taxpayers should be storming the next board meeting.

    Laurel: To the Elderton lawsuit. We agree with the lawsuit filed this week by a group of Armstrong taxpayers asking a county judge to block the reopening. We have doubts whether a judge can actually do that, as state law gives local boards wide latitude as to district operation. And there are few provisions to protect taxpayers from their elected officials — even when they’re making egregious mistakes.

    The suit also asks the judge to hold the six who voted to reopen Elderton — Rose Stitt, Jim Solak, Mike Markilinski, John Monroe, Royce Smeltzer and Sara Yassem — financially responsible for any money spent on the reopening

  • By concerned citizen, February 26, 2010 @ 4:04 PM

    google it…

    Apple to Apples? I’m comparing first year teachers in ASD to first year teachers in other districts. (many of which are proficient in PSSA’s)

    Are our new hires really worth $10,000 more per year than Brookville teachers or Freeport?

    You mean the constuction workers that work all year around?

    Very interesting how we are mindful of tax dollars except when it comes to teachers’ salaries or forcing our distict to defend itself in court.

  • By Jen16226, February 26, 2010 @ 5:07 PM

    CC……..if you would, could you please post a link for where you are getting your information?

    I am interested to see if maybe the new hires are teaching not just one subject and that could be driving up the salary.
    An example……lets say you have a k-12 special ed teacher that has a starting salary for that of $30,000 but he is also teaching special ed english at the HS, that adds onto the salary.

    At least that is what I have been told about how the salaries go.

    As for defending itself in court, perhaps if the board truly would act in the best interest of the entire taxbase this wouldn’t be a problem. But I have a problem when board members bully, intimidate, side step issues and blatantly lie. And if I am not mistaken, the district is only paying for their actual portion of the fees. In the LT article Lee Price said “Price said he received a copy of the suit yesterday and said that he would represent the district, and if asked, the six directors named in the suit.”

  • By scott_starr, February 26, 2010 @ 5:47 PM

    @cc

    I have changed my mind about building this alleged superschool. After listening to Jennifer Willard and Debbie Reffers talks at the last boardmeeting, we can’t afford it.

    Concerning teacher salaries, one need to look not only at the starting salary, but the “max out” salary. I remember several people telling me, for example that ASD starts higher than Kiski for example, but the midpoint at Kiski is higher than ASD.

    ASD, for better or worse seems to keep teachers for almost life. Once they get in here they don’t leave, mainly because most have grown up in the area.

  • By concerned citizen, February 26, 2010 @ 5:55 PM

    Jen,

    The inappropriate behavior on the board goes both ways. It just depends which side of the aisle you’re sitting on as to who you feel is out of line.

    http://php.app.com/PAteachers0607/search.php

    If my region doesn’t hit sales quotas for 3 years in a row, I’m looking for a new job, not complaining I have to kick in for my health benefits.

  • By rfullerton, February 26, 2010 @ 5:59 PM

    Concerned citizen: As I tell my students “beware of what you google”. There are A LOT of inaccuracies on the internet and reliable sites are few and far between. On the other hand, if you are looking for a site (any site) to validate something you are set on, keep googling and you will eventually find something to support what you want (although you may have to sift through a lot of sites that do not agree with you before you get what you want).

    Your numbers for starting salaries are incorrect as is your insinuation that our students did not make AYP. How many times does it have to be said: ALL ASD schools made AYP with 2 subgroup exceptions: learning support reading at KJHS and emotional support at Elderton. Do you even know what that means?? People are tossing around the PSSA results and AYP and I am betting that there is not a real understanding of what those numbers actually mean.

    As to teacher salaries: I am currently an ASD teacher and was previously a Virologist at UPMC. I took a pay cut to become a teacher so obviously my motivation was not monetary in nature. I worked far less hours at UPMC than I do teaching because I NEVER had to bring my work home on weekends, or in the evenings, or had to plan lessons or do any work related things during my vacations. Mind you I am not complaining about my job….I love my job and I do it for the kids, in a effort to help them to be successful in whatever careers they choose to follow. If you are so jealous of teachers…become one then we will see if you can hack it and if we can then have a meaningful conversation on the topic…very doubtful.

    On another note those teachers that you continue to bash pay taxes in this district just as you do. Therefore if your taxes go up our/their taxes go up also. According to you the teachers are overpaid so guess who is over paying their own salaries with their own tax increases?? Teachers in this district are also one of the very few that contribute to their health care costs.

    I would think a good teacher would be worth more to a school district than a decrepit old building is and a good teacher with exceptional teaching resources would be priceless!

    As to Brookville, perhaps their teachers are underpaid…I don’t know. I can’t speak for other districts as I have no personal knowledge of what they do or how they operate. Do you?

    Unlike some, I try not to speak to things that I know nothing about.

    BTW: The construction worker that makes more than me working all year long…hardly, he doesn’t work in inclement weather nor does he work in the winter. He collects unemployment and catches up on his hunting. If teachers miss a snow day we have to make it up. We don’t collect unemployment. Technically teachers are not paid in the summer. The money we/they receive was money that was earned during the school year and is spread out over 12 months.

    I apologize for rambling..that’s what happens on a snow day…I have to try to teach somebody something everyday..it is my nature.

  • By Ruscoe, February 26, 2010 @ 6:06 PM

    I think you are beginning to see many others coming out now and communicating on the many dynamics involved here.

    1) Many people do not want to see Elderton reopened (period).

    2) Many people do not want to see this pipe dream of a “super school” occur, either.

    3) There has to be a middle ground. Where is it?

    What we have here is the fanatics from the old SOS (Save Our School) gang brawling with the People for Progess or whatever it is called now (the former eggheads known as the PIE group).

    This is not a new battle. It has been going on for decades and both sides are riding the fringe, and the people who do not have the so-called “passion” of the former SOS gang and the so-called “intelligence” of the PIE gang are left in the middle saying, “Here we go, again!”

    History does repeat itself, and until both of these sides are ready to get out of their battle stances, nothing is going to happen.

    The Community School crowd needs to bring some common sense and financial sense to the table. The population is declining and taxes are getting stretched beyond our means to keep small schools open just to support a philsophocial principle. All things change. We do not like them to change, but they do. That is life and sometimes we have to let go. Supporting a principle alone is not always driven by common sense, and it is not always beneficial to others. Sometimes principles are driven by pride and a feeling of vengance; let go, please. Look at how it affects others.

    People for Progress crowd needs to udnerstand that not everything revolves around West Hills and the dreams of Quad A sports programs. Clsoing schools just to shift the money and debt to a big school, just to have a “big school” makes no sense, especially when this area cannot support the building of a whole new school.

    Centrally locate a consolidated schools so transportation plans are efficient. Do not locate them to pad pockets or fulfill pipe dreams. The sucking sound of everything being pulled to the West Hills area is very audible. People need to look into who are the people behind some of these proposals. It may shock both sides.

    I do not believe Dr. Kerr is the best captain to be steering this ship at this time. Maybe his fault or maybe no fault of his own, but the whole structure of the administration and the board is confrontational. Was he antagonized into certain situations and statements? Certainly. Do I believe he should be received into sainthood for his edcucational prowess? No way. I have no idea how to get a superintendent in here independently, but that would help. Neither side claiming a majority to make a decision on the new hiring. Like I said before, it may be no fault of his own, but Kerr has lost credibility with the much of the public.

    I think the message to the directors from the middle are sounding off loud and clear, but the problem is nobody wants to hear it. Let’s plug our ears and go back to the bickering.

  • By ToddLuke, February 26, 2010 @ 11:19 PM

    @ concerned citizen

    I think if you are going to compare contracts and salaries you should not just look at the pay scale. It has been a practice by some districts on your list to hide money “off the scale”. You might want to investigate that before you compare apples and make assumptions about ASD salaries. There is no money hidden in the ASD contract for teachers salaries.

  • By ironworker, February 27, 2010 @ 6:41 AM

    Dear rfullerton,

    Let me set you straight on a few of your comments in regards to construction workers. We may make more than you, but only if we work steady for 12 months. If we worked the same rigorous hours that teachers do, we would starve.

    We do work all year long, when there is work to man. It doesn’t matter whether it is bitterly cold or extremely hot, we do our best to make the day.

    I am sorry that you had to do your rambling on a snow day. You know what I did on my snow day? I woke at 4 a.m. I dressed in my long underwear, thermal socks, three sweatshirts, insulated work boots and Carhartt jacket. Went outside and shoveled my walk. Got in my car and drove an hour to Pittsburgh to see if I could make the day, so that I could pay my taxes, that pay your salary. Unfortunately, the weather conditions were so bad we had to leave, it just wasn’t safe enough for us to go onto the steel structure. I lost 4 hours pay due to the weather. When was the last time that happened to you.

    We do collect unemployment when work is bad. In case you haven’t noticed the economy has been kind of @#$%& lately. Are their individuals who take time of when the weather is bad or they want to go hunting? Absolutely. Are their teachers that abuse sick days and take unnecessary sabaticals? Absolutely.

    In the construction field we do NOT have sick days, we do NOT have vacation days. We get paid an hourly wage.

    Please, in the future do not compare construction workers to teachers. Because there is none.

    I will be leaving for Pittsburgh bright and early Monday morning, if you would like to try and make the day in my shoes I will gladly meet you at 5 a.m. Dress warm.

  • By concerned citizen, February 27, 2010 @ 7:27 AM

    Thanks for your response rfullerton…

    Aren’t snow days great? Much to my dismay, private industry still went on yesterday.

    Since my numbers are incorrect, could you please post some accurate numbers of first year starting salaries of the districts listed above?

    I’m sure your response will be, “why is that important?” Well, I believe the single biggest expense to our district is very important when it comes to taxes, which you’re so very concerned about.

    I appreciate your dedication to being an educator and taking a pay cut. I’ve also taken a pay cut in the last 3 years of around $30,000. Times are tough in the real world…

    Interesting perspective on the Brookville teachers being underpaid. Some may say ASD’s are overpaid, guess it just depends who your check is coming from.

    My intention is not to bash teachers. I’m pointing out that our taxes are increasing and high for several reasons. If your group is so interested in taxes, they should be looked at from all angles, not just buildings. After all we live in an area of reduced lunches, an aging population, and high unemployment.

    Choose your battles, win your war. I agree tax dollars are being wasted to reopen Elderton. However, where will all of the “my taxes are too high” people be the next time the ASD teachers reject the contract because they “shouldn’t have to pay anything for benefits”?

  • By Jen16226, February 27, 2010 @ 7:45 AM

    CC……..Inappropriate behavior should NOT be tolerated by ANY board member. NONE! ZERO! ZILCH! Especially when it comes directed at a student or at a taxpayer that is only making a statement or asking a question.
    In addition, the bickering on the stage has to stop and quite frankly, Ms. Stitt needs to take more control of that meeting and hold everyone to a better standard. I KNOW that is a hard thing to try and control emotions and the way others behave and to her credit she took that position, BUT the children and teachers are held to a certain standard of behavior, why is it not pertaining to the board as well? Well actually it is…..,it’s just not enforced!
    Here is a link for everyone to read. It is the Pennsylvania School Board Association website, of which our district is a member of.
    http://www.psba.org/issues-advocacy/issues-research/effective-school-governance/PSBA-standards-with-code-of-conduct.asp

    As for the healthcare issue….I have asked this before and actually finally had gotten an answer. The district IS actually in a consortium with other nearby districts! Don’t look to the number that MJM had posted last week as what the teachers are paying because he stated that was a per month figure, when in fact it was a per pay amount.

    Ruscoe……..I did not live here for the SOS or PIE groups, so I can’t say anything about that. But you are correct that there has to be a middle ground and that is where unintimidated discussion should be happening. Instead of a tug of war for a building, it should be more than that.
    I can apprecite people having feelings of pride for the building they attended school in, but this district can simply not afford to have 4 high schools, let alone 3.
    The economic factors of this county dictate that. I have said it before…..we should have kept Elderton closed and realized the savings of approximately $2million per year and banked it and continued to do so for a few years.
    As much as people are going to hate to read this, FCHS was built in 1905, how many more years does anyone think this building is going to stand? In addition, to have 2 high schools within 10 miles of each other is wasteful, IMO. So yes, sooner or later a decision needs to be made with concern to that. Is the answer to build a new HS at middle ground for Elderton, KTG and FC? Yes. Can that happen now? NO! Again, the economic climate of this area does not indicate that.
    This is not 1980 where Eljer and PPG were still open and contributing mightily to the tax base….both in their cutting a check, as well as all the employees that are now gone and have moved away

  • By johnnymydear, February 27, 2010 @ 8:40 AM

    Be true to the platfrom you ran on: I understand that you want the small community schools to stay open, but be honest, yes, that may mean higher taxes. Many people would be willing to pay higher taxes to keep their local schools, and many would also say buildings don’t make the educational system and you’re traveling down the wrong path . That’s fair! People move to communities all the time and know that their taxes will be high, but they feel the results of the educational system are worth it.

    Don’t act as if you’re doing the right thing by reopening Elderton because you truly believe it is the correct route to take for everyone in the ASD area or even the people of Elderton. We know why you are doing it, you’re fighting for Elderton because you feel Ford City may be the next school to close, and you need as many supporters on your side as you can get. If it reopens, you just received some.

    As for teachers pay, they have an investment of money and time, walk in there shoes for a year and tell me they don’t deserve $40,0000 while still paying off college loans at $200-$500/month. I taught for a few years and not only is it stressful, demanding, and everyone thinks they are your boss, now “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND!” That’s realistic.

  • By Ruscoe, February 27, 2010 @ 10:05 AM

    Jen: I agree with some of what you said, disagree with some of what you said, and not sure about some other things.

    Some of the things you have posted try to describe this current board as bullies and such. The other side showed this same kind of behavior just within the last several years. Until we acknowledge that both sides are doing this and not just on the bandwagon when a new majority comes into power nothing will get completed, because when we accuse only one side of doing it, we are feeding into it and not helping it. There was a former director who was very similar to MJM. He had his own constituents complain about his words and actions just like MJM. If you really want change, you should be taking both sides to task for not even trying to work together and not trying to empower one over the other. Have you attended the ASD meetings before this year? You would have been appalled three years ago, if you are appalled now. It may have been even worse.

    I also think that we need to be insisting that these directors commit to a long-term plan that is laid out for the public now. As I stated before, depending on which new side gets the majority in power, they both try to sneak things into the mix that is upsetting to the public.

    What does Solak and crew have as their goal if the population continues to plummet?

    What do the People for Progress have in mind if Elderton does remain closed?

    Let’s see both long-term plans put out there, because right now I do not trust or support either side. Each side has an agenda. It would be interesting to see both sides answer these things.

  • By rfullerton, February 27, 2010 @ 10:14 AM

    Please get the “super school” (especially at West Hills) off the table. It is not in the works! When will people understand that. I know many of the members of PFP and none that I know of have an agenda to line anyone in the West Hills areas pockets. Many are not even from the Kittanning area….this is just more rumors perpetuated by people who want the district to believe that Solak and his cronies are the second coming and trying to save the district against all that is evil. GET OVER IT! Let’s REALLY start to consider our kids. What is best for the students as far as facilities, technology and programs (sorry guys but I have no interest in sports). As I stated in a different blog, our budget is higher than Mt. Lebanon’s and yet they have soooooo much more. Why is that? Obviously there are a lot of wasted funds being spread over buildings which results in all getting very little. This is what needs to stop. Stop putting band aids on crumbling old buildings and use that money directly for our students, for technology that can be had by ALL classrooms (not by just a few as it is now), for better programs, for training of teachers in new areas to be utilized in the classrooms. Let’s get our kids into the current century.

  • By scott_starr, February 27, 2010 @ 10:38 AM

    @Ruscoe:
    Please take a look at the studies on ASD website. This alleged super school, (one of 4 plans by the way) had Lenape Campus as the site not West Hills.
    I do remember in 1980′s when this was thought of once again, It was supposed to be in West Hills.

    I can only provide antecdotal evidence, but I’ve spoken to a lot of kids about whats going on, well over 100. Many have very high goals, which they give up because “ASD doesn’t offer enough”. Many students want to attend NYU, I’ve heard Harvard and many other schools, yet they all are settling. NONE of our children should have to settle. On an even playing field I’ll put our kids up against anyone and I’ll give odds.

    Look at some of the quotes from the Charrette by students.. this one stands out “We are here, ask us what we want”.

    Let’s ask them.

  • By rfullerton, February 27, 2010 @ 1:43 PM

    Mr. Construction worker: Sorry if I touched a nerve. I would never want your job, I couldn’t/wouldn’t do it as I am sure you would not want mine. I studied hard in school, spent lots of money on my education (that I am still paying off)and planned a future that would best suit me. Construction was not on my radar as I am not equipped for that sort of physically strenuous work. It was my choice to become a teacher as I am sure being a construction worker was your CHOICE.

    My point was strickly to let the people out there, that continually bash teachers, know that we are not the highest paid jobs by any means (even with all of the education we have put in). Teachers work hard for their money, as do you, and no one has a right to knock that. If you want to bash teachers, become one, let’s see how that goes. And then we can have a meaningful discussion on how teachers are over paid.

    Alas, yes on my snow day I had to grade papers that I don’t have time in class to do, develop lessons for next week and look for some new and interesting things that might grab the attention of some students to get them motivated…very easy..and then I had to do lessons for cyber school (ASD cyberschool) and grade their assignments(that only took 6 hours)….pretty easy yes?? Oh yeah and then I have to make up the day I missed later on. Do you think snow days are a bonus? Did you bring work home with you last night? Maybe/maybe not, regardless do not for one minute think that teachers are all overpaid. I am sure there are some that are but to make a blanket statement that all teachers are over paid is just uninformed and incorrect. You chose your career and you can change it if you would like to. I did! Takes a little motivation, extra time and effort and a lot of classes but it can be done.

    BTW: don’t know who you work for but my “neighbor” is collecting unemployment right now. Perhaps you should look into a different organization. I would never fault anyone for collecting unemployment (it has saved my butt in previous jobs)for being off because the work just isn’t there. Certainly you are entitled to it. You pay into it and that is what it is meant for. I am also sorry that you have to drive all the way to Pittsburgh to work. I did that for 11 years. It is no picnic and I was essential personal so I had to go even in a state of emergency. There was no choice to stay home.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if there were more construction jobs (or any jobs for that matter, so that you see people driving into the county in the morning rather than out) in Armstrong county…hmmmmm..wonder why there aren’t. Or is that the teachers fault as well?

    I appreciate that your taxes help to pay my salary (and educate YOUR children). Mine do as well. So if the district taxes go up due to unnecessary renovations and opening useless buildings your taxes go up and so do mine. The upcoming tax increases are not due to teachers salaries but perhaps to the disorganization of the district having too many building for very few students, that have to be maintained and staffed….it’s not the salaries. ASD teachers are paid well, not at the top, not at the bottom and we do currently contribute to health insurance (one of the few teachers groups that do).

    Again, I apologize, I did not mean to make you feel that I think poorly of construction as a career. It is a good position and absolutely necessary to our survival. I could have/should used a different career to compare. It was not meant to demean you in any way. My family comes from a long line of coal miners and I know the ins and outs of that type of position. It is not something that I could do.

    Ruscoe: You are right. We do need to take both sides to task and it would be great if we could know and hold directors to their platforms pre-election. Will that ever happen?

  • By Ruscoe, February 27, 2010 @ 2:26 PM

    Thanks, Scott. That is new information for me. I will try and research the ASD website.

    rfullerton: On this subject, you are very, very wrong. The West Hills designation has been around for decades, and I do know of at least one current school board member who spoke of it in public as their ideal philsopohical goal. You are correct that there are alot of rumors out there.

    I do not think you wil find any statements from me favroable to MJM or Solak, but like I stated in earlier posts, you become part of the problem when you try to lump everybody together who does not agree with your points. There are plenty out here who are disgusted with both sides.

    Going back to Scott: I agree with using the opinion of the students, but we both know that it has it’s limits. I am sure we can provide many things to the children, but I also know there are many things that we cannot afford at this point in time, also.

  • By jfullerton, February 27, 2010 @ 3:00 PM

    Ironworker:

    Certainly, I cannot disagree with you leaving for work during snow days. I do not think that we can get anything accomplished debating that. YOu could also say the same thing about doctor’s, nurses and such. It is one of the perks of education, but it is for the safety of children.

    However, teachers are not the only ones that get paid by tax dollars. Look at the new Penguins facility, Pirates facility, Steelers facility. All of those are funded by the taxpayers and state dollars that are received by people paying state tax. And construction workers had to build those, so they in turn were paid by tax payer dollars. So I guess I work to pay my own salary and pay for other projects that benefit me as well and the people that work on them.

    I think highly of all of the people that do the work that I am not qualified to do. But these are more of the personal feelings that have no place in this debate. Teachers have perks that others do not, I will not even contest that. But everyone that is a teacher made that choice. And for the record, I went to work yesterday too as I am not able to take days off due to inclement weather either.

    I hope that you do not find this confrontational. And I want to hear how we can make this better, not continuing to fight with each other. Fighting amongst ourselves as citizens of the county will not solve this problem, it will keep it going.

  • By elderman, February 27, 2010 @ 6:45 PM

    Reply to Jen: In your posting of Feb. 27, 2010 at 7:45 AM you criticize the board and especially Ms. Stitt for “inappropriate behavior.” Further, you refer to a link to the Pa. School Board Assoc. website dealing with code of conduct. I skim read over it and it appears to set some standards for board members in regard to treating everyone with respect, etc. To the casual observer it would appear that you are making a plea for everyone to treat others civilly and with respect. If that is your purpose, I applaud it. But in your article, you supply a link to the site run by a former ASD board member. I am familiar with that site and I have to believe that you read it before supplying the readers with that link. How can you reconcile making a plea for civility on one hand but sending readers to that site where you know respect and civility not only are not practiced but just the opposite is the norm? I question your motives and judgment on this matter and am eager to see your reply.

  • By elderman, February 27, 2010 @ 7:08 PM

    Reply to rfullertin: I agree with Concerned Citizen, you said his starting salary figures for the cited school districts were wrong, so you must have the “actual facts” at your disposal. Please humor us and go ahead and post those true numbers.

  • By Bolt Upright, February 27, 2010 @ 7:17 PM

    I can’t believe that people are actually saying that someone making $40,000 a year is an excessive amount of pay.

  • By asdtaxpayer, February 27, 2010 @ 9:23 PM

    Ironworker

    I am blue collar guy. Do you honestly think it is easy being a teacher? Do you have your own kids?

    Well put roughly 30 of your kids in a room and keep law and order.

    How would you handle one of the students talking back to you?

    Do not criticize another individual’s profession until you have walked in the shoes.

    Do you have bad co workers? I bet you do.

    I would never want to be a teacher that is a lot of responsibility.

  • By Jan, February 27, 2010 @ 9:37 PM

    I did a little research on teacher salaries from around the area. As I suspected, with the exception of Fox Chapel, most of the salaries at some point, gain momentum and are about the same. I used the ASD, Fox Chapel ( because it was mentioned), Kiski and Freeport. I also used 2nd, year salaries: for whatever reason, there weren’t a lot of 1st. year salaries posted that were at 100% so I used 2nd, year and 34-37 yr.
    ASD: $42,671- 2nd. yr. $69,575- 37th. yr.
    Fox Chapel: $42,402-2nd, yr. $93,100- 37th. yr.
    Kiski: $41,484 (this was a 1st. yr.) $72,991- 35th. yr.
    Freeport: $31,400- 2nd. year $73,121 – 34th. yr.
    As you can see- over time most of these schools are comparable in salaries, so the ASD teachers are not running to the bank with all their money.

  • By rfullerton, February 27, 2010 @ 11:05 PM

    I do have figures, but some of the following are problems I have run into with the current numbers I have obtained:
    1.Some of the salaries I found are estimates because there was not a number at my disposal for 1st year teachers but there was for second year teachers. I would hate to put out mis-information because I am estimating those salaries.
    2. I also ran into the problem of some starting salaries, in the same district, with the same years of experience being different and I had no way of accounting for that.
    3. Also the figures I have are from last school year and may or may not be the current years salaries.
    Certainly if you are interested you can find the exact figures by calling each school district and asking. However, it is not enough just to obtain the starting salaries. Teacher contracts are bit more complicated than that. You will also need to know how many steps are in a specific contract and what the ending salaries are. At that point you are better equipped to compare apples to apples. I have not done that homework yet but will be happy to share after I do.

    As it is, some schools start high and then level off while others start low and have a huge jump-step where things then equal out. Basically what I am saying is that you cannot base a teachers salary on the starting amount. I am sure that is not what “teacher-bashers” want to hear but it is a fact. I have been a teacher for quite sometime and still have to have the way the salary schedule works explained to me when I am trying to figure out where my salary is going with any new contract. Just throwing out numbers would be wrong on my part. I will say that in doing my research thus far that ASD teachers start at the high end of the middle level. Some higher, more lower. You must also take into account that the ASD teachers have also begun to contribute to health care where as other districts have not. I say that there are districts comparable in size and close in proximity that do very well, better than ASD. There are those that do not do as well. All of this however will change as new teacher contracts come up in the other districts. We will have to wait and see what happens in the other districts.

    Elderman if you find the posting of inaccurate salaries that are then used to berate a group of people humorous then perhaps you need to to amuse yourself by obtaining your own data. If I really though you were interested for the purpose of helping to solve district problems I would go out of my way to get those figures for you, but I am fairly certain you just want those numbers to twist and turn to suit some agenda that is not for the best interest of our kids.

  • By Jen16226, February 27, 2010 @ 11:59 PM

    Hi all……….I had a VERY long day but thought I would pop on to answer those that responded to me.

    Ruscoe…..Yes some of the things I have posted does describe bullying that is recent because I did not move to this area but a few years ago. I know I stated this in a previous post I had done, but I will state this again. I don’t know if you grew up here or not, but it is VERY hard for a newcomer to the area to just acclimate 1,2,3. People have roots and ties and speaking from experience, there have been ALOT of cases where I truly did not feel anything I would have to say, would be heard. So if your voice is not heard, why speak? Well a few months ago, our neighborhood had a sex offender move in. Because I unfortunately have had such an experience in my life, I spoke up because at that point, it was something that truly hits me to the core and I realized nobody knew this man was here or what he had done. I made it a mission to inform everyone and am continuing to try and make sure people in my community stay informed and learn to be aware. Once I did that and realized my voice was being heard, I decided to stand up for other things that are important to me………and here we are.
    The sad part is, this district has been a tug of war for soooooo many years over bricks and mortar and it should have been about smart, progressive thinking for the kids AND the taxpayers. The enrollment has declined, smart thinking says so should the number of our schools. We are in 2010 and the kids are having difficulty passing tests……sit down as a group, stop your fighting and figure something out. Stop wasting money on building consultants and get consultants in here for our curriculm.

    Oh Elderman I am almost too tired to respond to you, but I will give it a shot.
    A- did you not read where I stated that others have taken the website over? It is being put into a blog format with video and twitter links. It will also maintain all of the historical data because it is good, strong information for people to look at.
    B- I could care less if you question my motives. People that know me don’t ever have to question that, so move along on that one.
    C- Again on the website….OK, it is a former board member that had the site. So because the former board member called people out on the things they was doing, is that wrong? Sorry, but there is a TON of information on that site that I do not care what side of the fence you sit on, if you don’t read some of it and question things, then you are drinking something stronger than kool-aid.

  • By elderman, February 28, 2010 @ 1:10 AM

    Reply to Jen: Perhaps you misunderstood what I asked you so I will ask you again in the simplist terms that I can think of. And I respectfully ask that you carefully read my comment before you start hammering on the keyboard. In you previous posting, you seem to make a plea for all parties to treat each other with respect and maintain some degree of civility. I stated that if that were indeed the case that I would applaud your effort. However, you directed readers to the website established by a former ASD director where respect and civility clearly are not practiced. My question that you did not answer remains; how do you reconcile wanting all parties to be more respectful to one another but refer people to this website which for the most part is the antithesis of respectful. If you endorse that website in it’s present form, then you were being facetious in your wish for more respect from everyone. I have no idea how the site will be changed, I am talking about the present.

  • By ironworker, February 28, 2010 @ 5:23 AM

    Dear rfullerton/asdtaxpayer

    rfullerton, I never said that teachers were overpaid. I made the statement that if I worked the same hours as a teacher I would starve. This being said, teachers put in approximately 200 days a year. Times eight hours a day would give me 1600 hours for the year. I am required to work over 1400 hours a year just to earn a pension credit and maintain my health insurance.

    asdtaxpayer, I never said that being a teacher was easy.
    I also have raised three children, all now college educated. I’m pretty sure that teachers keep order in their classrooms the same way we did raising our children, it’s called discipline.
    I did not criticize rfullerton’s profession, I was informing her that we do work in all types of weather and there are other reasons for collecting unemployment, not just for taking time of to go hunting and fishing.

    Do I have bad co-workers? Absolutely.

    Your last statement freightens me. You wouldn’t want the responsibility of a school teacher. You say you are a blue collar worker. In my line of work responsibilty is a must. Quite often we rely on our buddy to tie the proper knot, make the proper hand signal, keep an eye on a possible dangerous situation. He damn well better be a responsible individual.

    I am not so sure I would want you to be my buddy.

    BTW I have family members that are school teachers. Like I said previously, please don’t compare teachers and construction workers, there is none. Two entirely different professions.

  • By concerned citizen, February 28, 2010 @ 7:16 AM

    Jan,

    ASD taxpayers are not Freeport, Kiski or Fox Chapel. How about Brookville, Karns City, Apollo Ridge, Clarion, Redbank Valley?

    I believe median incomes for Armstrong Couny taxpayers are much more in line with those areas.

    Again, you and Ms Fullerton want to be tax conscious when it fits your agenda.

    Bolt upright…nobody is saying $40,000 is a ton of money, but why do ASD teachers feel entitled to higher or comparible salaries to other districts that have a more affluent tax base.

  • By Jen16226, February 28, 2010 @ 8:48 AM

    OK…….I have had some sleep and a little bit of coffee.

    Elderman…..you stated “How can you reconcile making a plea for civility on one hand but sending readers to that site where you know respect and civility not only are not practiced but just the opposite is the norm?”

    We had written “Furthermore, we urge everyone to be informed of the issues in your own community, especially the ones where your vote counts. Read the newspaper, search items online, talk to your neighbors, call or email your representative, go to council and board meetings, ask questions and get involved. Volunteerism is at an all time low in just about every area.
    Everyone needs to form their own opinion on the goings on of our school board. In forming your own opinion, this is where the internet can be your best friend. Here are just a few of the websites that we have found very valuable in our research”
    I futher went on to state with regard to http://www.asd-news.com “This site was run by a former board director of ASD. This week, some concerned and informed people took over the site and are about to reconstruct it by adding to the content and giving it a new format”

    I don’t feel there is anything misleading in this. There is sooooooo much data on there and research that has been done concerning the issues that I FEEL are in the majority of the taxpayers interest and if they choose to go to that site and read it, good. They are getting information.
    As for the bickering that is shown on there…..I did not send people there to bicker. I sent people there to GET INFORMATION.
    Get your right hand off yellow and your left leg off red.

    The board does need to stop the bickering. Has anything been accomplished by it all? No.

    EVERYONE has a right to information. And you know what? EVERYONE has a right to make their opinions known and heard…….no matter what side of the fence they are on.
    RIGHT now the MAJORITY of people are looking for all the information they can get their hands on because they have had enough……..just as I started to do not long ago.

  • By kwiss4, February 28, 2010 @ 9:34 AM

    Thought was interesting as we continue to try and compare districts.
    ASD 471 square miles
    Foxchapel 36 square miles
    Mt lebanon 6.1 square miles
    Kiski area 102 square miles

    We are to large a district geographicaly.

  • By ToddLuke, February 28, 2010 @ 9:41 AM

    @ Jan

    Are you certain you have not missed money in those contracts that is off the scale. some districts post the pay scale for instructional days but teachers also get paid off the scale for inservice days. You will need their contract to verify if any money is hidden. It was a practice when I was association president because most people only look at the pay scale when they compare contracts. It is a bit misleading but I believe you will find money off the scale in at least one school on your list.

  • By kwiss4, February 28, 2010 @ 12:28 PM

    here are a few more

    Plum 29 square miles
    North Hills 14.4 square miles
    Pine Richland 31 square miles
    north allegheny 48 square miles.

  • By Jen16226, February 28, 2010 @ 9:33 PM

    This morning in Church, my Pastor(shout out to Pastor Dave Blevins!!!!) gave a wonderful analogy that as soon as he said it, my immediate thought was everything we have ALL been posting about for the past couple of months.

    Sometimes you can tell people there it is snowing and they will just refuse to see the truth in that. There can be a foot on the ground, everything white, flakes hitting you and people will STILL say there is no snow.

    There are facts on paper, facts in media, facts on video and facts on websites. When people read these facts, they can choose to read the whole truth and nothing but the truth, or they can take what they like and leave the rest.

  • By rfullerton, February 28, 2010 @ 10:33 PM

    Mr. Ironworker:
    I never meant to dis your profession I was just trying to show some relationship between the 2 and I am sorry but there are similarities. For one we are both essentially paid by tax dollars….anyway,my problem with what you are saying, however, is that thinking that a teacher works only 200 days per year is a bit light. Do you think that our jobs end when we walk out the door at 3 pm (if in fact we even get out the door then)? Not quite, there are papers to grade, lesson to write, tests to create, technology to integrate, clubs to run (often that work outside of the school day), teams to coach, activities to chaperone, conferences to attend, students to tutor, cyber classes to teach, plays to produce, bands to direct, and so on….we don’t get paid time and 1/2 for our hours outside the work day. We don’t get double time for time put in on holidays (occassionally there is a little bit of compensation but not enough to amount to the time put in). We do it for the kids, because we want to not because we have to. So saying that we only work about 200 days is not true, maybe there are 187 or so days that are scheduled but not the rest… The fact of the matter is that teachers only get paid for those days that are scheduled, we are just required to receive our pay spread out over 12 months. If you took an average teacher and calculated how much we make per hour I think you will find that we don’t make any where near what you make. People don’t consider that and that’s fine but don’t knock what you don’t know about. Our compensation is seeing that one student who didn’t “get it” finally have a light bulb come on or that kid that everyone thought wouldn’t amount to anything graduate…that’s why we do what we do, by no means is it the pay or the (non)appreciation. We do it for our students…that is the crux of this whole argument about reopening a school that is not an educationally sound idea (not to mention the fiscal irresponsiblity of it). What is happening in the district is not in the best interest of our students. Whether elderlyman likes it or not, on that fact I will not be silenced.

  • By elderman, February 28, 2010 @ 11:06 PM

    Reply to rfullerton: Let me see if I can summarize your lengthy reply to Concerned Citizen and myself after we both requested from you the figures that showed that Concerned Citizens starting teacher’s salaries were “wrong”. Concerned Citizen had starting salaries from a number of districts. You say you have some starting salaries, some second year salaries, different scales, and contractual differences. We do not need all that and I’m sure the readers would certainly appreciate your offer to do homework but to keep it simple, just give us the figures that you used to determine that CC numbers were “wrong”. I’m sure that we will come to the same conclusion as you. No need for us to call all those schools when you have the numbers right in front of you. And my comment to “humor us” was not meant in any way to berate a group of people. In the context that I used the term “humor us”, it was meant to urge you to supply us with your facts even though you might feel we were beneath your consideration. You should be flattered and I’m surprised that you would interpret it in any other way.

  • By Ruscoe, March 1, 2010 @ 12:19 PM

    Jen: I am not getting your thinking. One time you are saying we need to hold the entire board accountable in their actions and their words. You also agreed that there needs to be some mediation. But as mentioned by elderman or whomever it was, you espouse the tactics of the former school board member who was clearly an agitator as much as any current director.

    I am still in agreement with your assessment that we need to have all sides sit down and have respectful and productive discussions concerning the issues that this distrcit faces, but I do not know how you can do that when you applaud and somehow justify the agitation that we have seen in the past.

    Both sides have displayed this unproductive behavior, but I cannot sit here and say it okay now, but it was bad back then or vice-versa.

    This is what got us into the mess that we are in today.

  • By RizzoSports, March 1, 2010 @ 2:00 PM

    Question – Isn’t the re-opening of Elderton bad news to anyone who wants to FCHS & KHS remained open over the long term? I would think that if they reopen Elderton and spend more money update it, then the district will eventually have to look at other options to save money. Which will be consolidating FC & Ktg WITHOUT building any new buildings – Which I think no one would want to see. Is this methodology correct?

  • By Jen16226, March 1, 2010 @ 3:01 PM

    Ruscoe…..I did not live here until almost 4 years ago and nor did I truly pay attention to what was going on until a few months ago because I did not feel that I had a voice no matter what I felt. So honestly, tones in peoples voices until I began going to the board meetings recently, I did not know.

    And of the 2 of us that created the editorial, it was me that posted the ASD site because honestly, it did give me a good insight to some of the goings on previously. There really is alot of good data on there for the way I was forming my opinion on matters. Does it correlate to you or others in here? Maybe, maybe not. But in part of that, it very well could be because some people in here have been to meetings previously or paid more attention than I did and also because opinions vary.

    Either way, unless people sit down, stop the bickering and try to solve the problems, nothing is going to get accomplished.
    Here is a for instance. A couple of weeks ago, I had posted in MJM’s editorial asking whether anyone had previously looked into making EHS a charter school. Nobody answered, but I have it posted on there again since someone from hero has posted on there…..hopefully she has an answer. But the object here is that, if people don’t ask questions or get answers, nothing gets accomplished. It becomes a never ending cycle.
    And I am sure I am not exactly the Einstein of Armstrong County, so where are others coming up with some sort of solution that is viable for everyone? Why can’t the board answer so many other questions that myself and others have asked that are right along the same lines as my charter school question?
    I really hope the board members do have a town hall meeting or some type of question and answer session. I think that actually might calm down alot of people. Even if they posted it all on a website.

  • By Jen16226, March 1, 2010 @ 3:05 PM

    Rizzo…..I suppose that is a scenario that very well could play out. But again, the board is not answering anyones questions. They are not sitting down with a longe range plan and presenting it. Do they even have a long range plan? Do they even have a financial plan?
    I tried asking these things to the board and have been told no by the couple of members that have answered my emails with regard to the financials.

    I don’t think they know what they are doing other than reopening EHS.

  • By mcfee, March 1, 2010 @ 3:33 PM

    That’s what began this whole mess the area is in right now. No one would commit to any long range plan, they all had ideas, BUT lacked the committment to act on any of them. There was an Elementary feasibility study done in 2001 that was voted on to enact. ALL elementary schools (EHS was included because the building there is a K-12 and would have been senseless to do half of the building) in the district were getting renovations or new construction with the exception of Dayton which wasn’t up for reimbursement. But instead of working on all the projects concurrently at an estimated cost of $50 million complete with a bond issue plan so the taxpayers knew ahead of time how much, if any, their taxes would go up, they hemmed hawed around, did a few more studies (one was a recommendation to make Lenape Tech a 1/2 day) and then decided to do the West Hills project first and when it was complete did Lenape E. They wasted so much time that just those 2 projects alone cost close to $50 million. Although some of that cost can be attributed to the design of the overpriced Hayes Large Architect firm. I think the board at the moment, even if you don’t agree with the reopening of Elderton which may be a long range plan in itself, is going in the right direction when looking at how many administrators does it really take to run a school district and figuring out why it takes so many bus companies and busses to transport the students to and from school.

  • By rfullerton, March 1, 2010 @ 4:52 PM

    j: I did my homework today…easy as 1,2,3 but I think I’ll take a pass on your invite for me to “humor you”. Last I checked I was not an entertainer but I ABSOLUTELY encourage you to do your homework….don’t think you’ll be very entertained…..and then we won’t hear from you again on this topic!

    Rizzo: You are a brave soul!

  • By scott_starr, March 1, 2010 @ 6:19 PM

    @mcfee:
    at at the risk of causing more problems.

    1. We should cut administrators, but we really need to think about which ones.

    2. When operating a budget, the ASD budget to be exact, 60+% of the budget is salaries and benefits. There are two choices, cut all the teachers salaries and keep the same number.
    Reduce the number of teachers, which essentially means cutting the number of schools.

    3. Busing is reembursed based on occupancy of the bus. So, with more schools, either kids put up with long bus rides, which everyone complains about ( so we can properly fill a bus) or we cut the number of schools, which kids have longer bus rides. I don’t see another way to get the levels up.

  • By Jan, March 1, 2010 @ 6:36 PM

    Concerned Citizen:
    I used the schools mentioned mainly because, with the exception of Fox Chapel, these other schools are in line with the ASD. I would not call Freeport a prosperous community, nor would I call Kiski one. Fox Chapel was mentioned because I beleive that one of our esteemed board members discussed it. The point of my post was to show that while teachers in the ASD start out a little higher than some schools, as the steps move forward, the other schools reach and surpass that of teachers in the ASD. This point being made, the other school districts do not have to pay any portion of their healthcare benefits. I’m not using this as leverage. Many companies today have had to pass along some of the expenses of healthcare to their employees and I see no issue with that. I have to pay a certain % of mine and I’m glad to have it. So if you were to factor in that expense, perhaps the salaries are all aligned. However, if you want me to send you the figures for the schools you mentioned, I’d be glad to do that. Just remember that many of those schools are very small and not even comparable to the large size of this district.

  • By elderman, March 2, 2010 @ 2:19 AM

    Reply to rfullertin: OUCH! You stated that Concerned Citizen’s figures for starting teacher’s salaries for a number of school districts were “incorrect” but now you cannot produce any evidence to back up your statement. I knew that when I read your rambling and disconcerted posting of Feb. 27, 2010 at 11:05 PM where you stated that you had some first year salaries, some second year salaries, some contractual differences, different levels of experience, and a host of other reasons why you could not supply the data to back up your claim. If you had no data or the data you had in hand was not sufficient to back up your claim that CC numbers were “incorrect” why did you state that? Again OUCH!!! Simply typing in some drivel about homework, humor, and being an entertainer does not, in any way, absolve you from producing data to support your claim. You Rebecca Fullerton, and Jen Williard have taken it upon yourselves to have your article printed in the Kittanning Paper and you have a responsibility to the READERS to maintain it as a truthful source. If we, the READERS have no confidence in you or Jen as reliable sources of information, we will avoid reading your articles or else read it while maintaining the thought that it may not be true. Again Rebecca, I give you the opportunity to supply the data that you used to adjudge CC figures as “incorrect”. At least consider your partner Jen who is so dedicated to getting the facts out there to everyone; her very first article with you and you orchestrate this disaster. Rebecca, I implore you, do not let Jen down, do not let the readers down, and do not let CC down. Don’t humor us in supplying you corroborating information, indulge us so that we can maintain the same level of confidence and trust that you two now deserve.

  • By Jen16226, March 2, 2010 @ 6:22 AM

    Good morning Elderman,

    You have stated: “You Rebecca Fullerton, and Jen Williard have taken it upon yourselves to have your article printed in the Kittanning Paper and you have a responsibility to the READERS to maintain it as a truthful source”. And you are absolutely correct!!!! May I ask where any of the salary discussion is in print for everyone to see? This was something that is up for debate on the comment section.

    Truthfully, I can understand why RFullerton is not putting the numbers on here for you. With your condescending attitude and bashing, I would tell you to go do your own homework too.

  • By DANBOY, March 2, 2010 @ 6:27 AM

    Reply to Elderman,Namredle,etc, and CC:
    OUCH so now we are attacking Jen’s credibility. Let the campaign begin. I will keep OUCH at my fingertips.2:19 am couldn’t sleep after the meeting? Instead of posting why not look at the Sabbatini audit and do something productive?

  • By scott_starr, March 2, 2010 @ 9:28 AM

    @elderman:
    so why is it that Jen and rfullerton, have an obligation to “be truthful” in an article, yet when I mention this about MJM it’s called supression of free speech!

    Which is it? or is it those who agree with you can say what they want and those who don’t must only be factual?

  • By Jen16226, March 2, 2010 @ 10:07 AM

    Elderman,

    Let me ask you this…..what direction would YOU like to see the school district go in?

    What is it that YOU would like to see happen with the school board? How do you think a school board SHOULD function?

  • By concerned citizen, March 2, 2010 @ 10:23 AM

    @dannyboy

    I’ve never once questioned Jen’s credibility. She’s actually a breath of fresh air in this debate and is willing to see facts on both sides.

    @Jan,

    Interesting fact that teachers should be paid on the size of the district, not on the economic climate within the district.

  • By smitty, March 2, 2010 @ 3:00 PM

    I personally am sick of hearing about a “super school” I laugh every time.If you combined evry school in the district it still would NOT add up to a “super school” My husband and I went to what you call a “super school” My husbands graduating class was over 900. We both had the very best eduacation, better than you will find in this district. I hear a lot of people talking about salaries… it is sick what these teachers make every where. Everyone has challenging jobs, stressful jobs. Quit boo hooing. Do I think that the education that my children get is worth $ 40,000 a year..NO. I still can’t believe that you wanted more, by wanting to go on strike. ESPECIALLY when the families of the children you teach , can’t afford to put food on the table. The way the school district,and county do things is a joke. Everyone involved should get their heads out of their butts.

  • By Jen16226, March 3, 2010 @ 8:51 AM

    Smitty…..
    I also went to what would be deemed a super school and agree….you could combine all of the kids in our district and it still would not graduate the numbers we did in only one of our high schools……and we had 3 highschools pulling those types of numbers in one town!

    Part of the problem comes down to change. There is not alot of change in this area. Where others around us are growing, our area is stagnated.

    Do we need a consolidated school? Yes. Can we do this now? No. Our economics show we can not afford it. But what do we do in the meantime? For one, the district needs to start being more conservative with the money. Just because it is there, does not mean we have to spend it all.
    In addition, look at FCHS as a good example. The school was built in the early 1900′s. How long does anyone think it is going to continue to stand? Doesn’t anyone think that perhaps we need to start looking down the road at these types of issues?

    To your posting “Do I think that the education that my children get is worth $ 40,000 a year..NO. I still can’t believe that you wanted more, by wanting to go on strike.”
    I think the teachers are worth it, but the bigger question is, how about the cirriculm taught? The teachers can only teach what they are given. How they present it, that is their job. But when district goes out there looking for some good things for the teachers to do their job, are they really looking ahead to the future? THAT is a bigger questions, because $40,000 to be a teacher, friend, confidant, helper, protector, and perhaps the only person that could truly care about a child….even if it is just one…that is money well spent.

  • By Jen16226, March 3, 2010 @ 8:53 AM

    CC……I am a breath of fresh air!?! Well that is a first…thanks!

    Danboy…..thank you for being protective!

  • By Jan, March 3, 2010 @ 10:58 AM

    To Ruscoe,
    First, I like the way you are thinking on most topics but one thing should be made clear. You asked this question on an earlier post:What do the People for Progress have in mind if Elderton does remain closed? I think it’s important to understand that there are many groups out there who have an opinion on how they see things happening in this district. HERO has theirs, HERC has theirs and PFP has theirs- and God knows what other groups are out there.Ultimately, the only power as to what the direction is for this district lays in the hands of the school board. Since we are a non-referendum state, it matters not what others think- the board will vote as they wish- regardless of the opinions of the taxpayers of this district— which I find extrememly frightening. I think that one thing that has opened the eyes of most voters in this district is that we ALL need to be more conscientious when we cast a vote for a school board member.This falls under Political Science 101.
    But back to your question about what the PFP has in mind for the district….The main objective that I’m hearing (I don’t belong to this group, but I’ve talked to them) is that they want a fiscally responsible board who make decisions based, not on emotions, but on true hard facts and a set of long range goals for this district. At this point in time- no one on this board will answer that question- actually, they won’t answer any questions. That sort of puts all of us in the dark for the future of the ASD. It is unbelievable that a board will rationalize their decisions to re-open a school with low numbers, re-open a school and renovate it when we have a pension plan fund that needs to be paid for starting in the year 2011-2012. This pension plan fund is enormous and will cost the taxpayers of this district a bunch of money, starting in 2011-12 and it will continue to rise and be at it’s highest peak by the year 2014. Where did I get this information? I’ve talked to several state representatives about the pension plan, along with contacting PSERS. I figure these people know what they are talking about and there is no bias there. Based on what I was told, but the year 2014, we will be in debt to the tune of “multi-millions” (they didn’t give a figure)So with that, is it prudent for this current board of 6 to be spending money on renovations to the tune of 24 million when we have a pension plan debt looming above us? I really don’t think it takes a mental giant to figure out the answer to that! Hence, the reason for the law suit pending against 6 of the board members. One other issue that needs addressed. And I know it’s been stated time and time again. Yes, back in the 80′s there was a study done to build a new school in the West Hills area. To my knowledge, and I’ve been around for awhile- I have not heard a word about building a new school- anywhere! If you look back to the mid-90′s when FC and KHS consolidated- there was no mention of a new school. The configuration at that time was that 7-9th. grades attended FC, and 10-12 attended KHS- and this was working- it was educationally sound and fiscally sound. However, new board, new plan and the schools went back to their current configuration and it remains that way today- and most probable, will reamin that way for many,many years to come. We can’t afford to build any new schools- I don’t care where they build it! We are in a postion right now that we need to concentrate our efforts in keeping our heads above water. I happen to like my home, and I’ll bet you like yours too. However, if this board continues on the path it’s taking, we both could be in jeopardy of paying such high taxes that we may have to consider selling and moving. The hitch there will be that no ones is going to buy our homes because no one would be able to afford to live here- which by the way seems ironic to even say- considering we all know of areas in western PA where the cost of living is so high, we couldn’t afford to live there either. Now that’s comparing apples to bananas!

  • By Jan, March 3, 2010 @ 11:46 AM

    Concerned Citizen: here are the answers you requested regarding the schools you requested. If you would like to do your own search, here is the website: http://php.app.com/PAteachers09
    Bear in mind that the figures I’m showing you are not all consistent with years of service, as they don’t all have 1st. year salaries posted. Also consider that these are merely instructional salaries and don’t take into consideration other contractual duties that teachers get paid for.
    Brookville: 1st.yr: 34,401 37 yr: 60,769
    Karns City: 2nd.yr: 36,715 38yr: 61,722
    Redbank: 2nd. yr.:35,177 36 yr. 59,846
    Clarion: 1st. yr: 38,658 36 yr: 66,091
    Apollo Ridge: 3rd : 39,399 38 yr: 68,052
    ASD: 2nd yr: 42,671 37 yr: 69,575
    Based on these numbers- most of the schools fall within a comparable area from beginning years salaries to retirement year salaries.

  • By rfullerton, March 3, 2010 @ 12:01 PM

    OUCH! Danboy, you took the words right out of my mouth….@2:19 am posting drivel to make others look bad (unsuccessfully I might add)while side-stepping Jen’s question “in what direction do YOU see the school district going”. I think Jen and I are fairly transparent and in agreement (most of the time…not all…but yet we are civil) on how we think things could be better…HOW ABOUT YOU? Are you going to answer the question posed to you by Jen? Is the fact that you are posting at 2am because you see your credibility crumbling and cannot sleep?

  • By Jen16226, March 3, 2010 @ 12:11 PM

    Elderman……..

    Let me ask you this…..what direction would YOU like to see the school district go in?

    What is it that YOU would like to see happen with the school board? How do you think a school board SHOULD function?

  • By rfullerton, March 3, 2010 @ 12:21 PM

    Jan: your numbers are fairly accurate in showing how those districts relate to each other but I think your data is at least 1 year old. When I did “my homework” I found that our surrounding districts start at different salaries but end fairly closely (withn $5000 or so). Dave Brown likes to throw out Homer Center as a comparison to Elderton (see the youtube video). They start at $52,000. If I just threw that number out there people would think that the teachers in Homer Center had hit the lotto…I could do that but that would be twisting information, as some people like to do. I am not one of the “twisters”. Homer ends at $69,000. Freeport who people like to toss around starts at (step 2) 32,800…leave that hanging and it looks like Freeport has such dedicated and giving teachers, but they end at $71,000. Do those numbers look better now? Leechburg 32,000-74,000. Armstrong 45,000-73,000. Indiana (to which I live close to) 51,000-74,000. Brookville (who went forever without a contract) 32,500-61,300. Then someone threw in Fox Chapel to make ASD look bad….40,300-96,000…don’t do that again! Highlands 38,000-84,000…and so on. You make the comparisons. Can we move on now from ASD teachers being paid too much and get to the real problems….too many buildings, too much staffing, a lot of wasted money (example: audit of find the $4 mill—$4000).

  • By concerned citizen, March 3, 2010 @ 3:53 PM

    Brookville: 1st.yr: 34,401 37 yr: 60,769
    Karns City: 2nd.yr: 36,715 38yr: 61,722
    Redbank: 2nd. yr.:35,177 36 yr. 59,846
    Clarion: 1st. yr: 38,658 36 yr: 66,091
    Apollo Ridge: 3rd : 39,399 38 yr: 68,052
    ASD: 2nd yr: 42,671 37 yr: 69,575

    This is in line? Would you consider a $10,000 difference in line if ASD were at the bottom end of the scale?

    When our taxes go up, blame it on more than buidlings…

  • By Jen16226, March 3, 2010 @ 4:29 PM

    I have questions on the salaries being shown.

    First…..Let’s say a teacher is also coaching or teaching a second class, does that show as their salary?

    Second……I don’t know if it because I am not totally familiar with the area, but why are Brookville, Redbank and Clarion’s numbers being compared? I know Redbank is smaller building-wise than our district and population. Brookville I would think is smaller, plus in a more desolate area, isn’t it? Clarion isn’t that kind of out of the way as well?
    When salary comparisons are done, isn’t the region and population taken into consideration?

    This one, I am sure is going to sound stupid, BUT what about some of the towns on the eastern side of the state? I am sure there are some towns just like us over there, where there is a decline in popultion, etc.

  • By rfullerton, March 3, 2010 @ 4:46 PM

    concerned citizen: Tell us what do YOU think is a fair salary for a teacher? Give us a starting number and a final number and gives us a per hour number. Do you really think $42,000 is a lot of money for a teacher or for anyone who is working?

    Is $500,000 a good number for opening a building with fewer students 7-12 than are at kjhs 7-8? Once the building is opened you have all utilities to keep that building operating. It is an old building very much like KJHS. Do you want to know where some of your tax dollars are going…right now?…right out of my classroom windows at KJHS because it is an old building with heating problems. My room is so hot that in the middle of January my window are wide open and the fans are on. Can you say wasted tax dollars? I can’t imagine that Elderton is any better as it is the same age if not older than KJHS. Is it cost effective to pay the teachers at said school the same as those with much bigger classes? Especially as it is shown by the PSSA scores, that people like to throw around, that the small class size has NOT benefited those students. After the 500,000 for cleaning and general maintenance we will then be spending a minimum of $42,000 (according to your figures) on each of the teachers that will be needed to staff that building. As was asked for by Ms. Byers, (see youtube video) the students at elderton will/should have the same offerings as the current open schools. That will require more teachers than Elderton had before and thus more tax dollars. I am not sure of the number of teachers that were reassigned/furloughed when elderton closed but it was somewhere around 37. You do the math…how much is that in our tax dollars? Then, we need the support staff; secretaries, maintenance(many which make a much higher wage than most teachers), aides, cafeteria….what are fair salaries for these? You can see that in “blaming it on more buildings” is where the costs arise. More buildings = more teachers. Do the math as well using the salary of the Brookville teachers, do you think that would make a huge difference. It is nice to try and have teachers as the villian here but you really need to look a bit farther for the true problem.

  • By kwiss4, March 3, 2010 @ 5:02 PM

    I find this information much more interesting than teacher salaries. 1998 ASD expenditures 57.26 million,schools all open, ASD 2009 85 million ,schools closed. I would like someone to explain how the expenditures went up more than 25 million dollars afer closing all these schools.

  • By concerned citizen, March 3, 2010 @ 6:06 PM

    When salary comparisons are done, isn’t the region and population taken into consideration?

    Absolutely Jen!! Teachers in the ASD should be paid on economics of the area and the region(county).

    After all, it’s all about lower taxes isn’t it?

  • By Delzer, March 3, 2010 @ 6:19 PM

    Concerned citizen I am going to ask this question again What would you like to pay a teacher with a college degree? I am so curious to see what people think is a fair salary. And by the way if our little town should ever turn the bend and become a boom town again are you going to willingly pay me more money because we are prosperous? Oh what am I thinking that is never going to happen because we can’t even make a decision and stick with it when it comes to closing one building.

  • By ToddLuke, March 3, 2010 @ 6:40 PM

    @ CC

    ASD does not make 10K more than Freeport teachers. Freeport gets paid for instruction days on the payscale and in-service days of the scale. Get a contract and see for yourself. They are doing just fine in Freeport.

  • By Jan, March 3, 2010 @ 9:16 PM

    rfullerton: the salaries are from 2009- that’s the latest that I could find.
    Concerned Citizen: you asked for the info- you got it. Comaparatively speaking, the salary range is not far off- considering the schools you want the numbers on. Here’s the bottom line: this is what the teachers make- this is what the board voted on in last contract ( and I doubt that the other schools have to pay for any healthcare- the ASD does) and, if you are concerned that the salaries of the teachers are breaking the districts bank- then perhaps we shouldn’t be adding more teachers to the mix when we re-open Elderton— and might I add, they won’t be starting at step 1 on the pay scale. So if you are concerned about this- then perhaps you should re-think your efforts to re-open another building and add 30 more teachers.

  • By Jen16226, March 3, 2010 @ 9:47 PM

    CC….
    OK. Then if they are taking area into consideration, why would the places I named be in with ASD as a comparison? Those areas have a lower cost of living and are even further than we are from any type of growth.
    Honestly, I don’t think a $40,000 starting salary for a college educated person is very high at all.

  • By swilson, March 3, 2010 @ 11:03 PM

    Regardless of whether you approve or disapprove of the closing of Elderton. There is one fact that cannot be disputed. The school DID close. At that time, the justification to close Elderton was derived mainly from a cost savings of ~2.5 million, continued declining enrollment, and better educational opportunities for the students. With that said, one must come to the conclusion that the closing of Elderton and the reopening are two very separate and distinct issues. No longer are they the same issue. The school has already closed. The prior board justified the closing to save money; the new board needs to justify spending it. The old argument of it shouldn’t have been closed in the first place no longer applies. Like it or not, the school DID close. Where is the justification to reopen the school? The school board now needs to justify spending an additional ~2 million a year for Elderton, $500k in reopening costs, and the $20 million in renovation costs. . Throughout this whole controversy, I have yet to hear how this spending will help our students. The argument I hear is mainly that we like our “community schools”. I’m sorry that Elderton had to close. I’m sorry that many of our schools had to close. Like it or not, our enrollment decline prohibits operating all the schools for all the kids all the time. Enrollment in the Elderton area is projected to decline further and its historical trend supports this. At what point would the closing be accepted? When the graduating class reaches 25? ever? This topic will undoubtedly come up again. The vote to reopen was 6-3, a few new faces on the board and we could be paddling upstream again. Is there any evidence that the students are performing worse at their new schools? Are we about to spend this money to provide the same, better, or worse education opportunities than the students currently have? Whatever the case it needs justified. At this point, I may need to remind people the school already DID close. Spending this kind of money or any money should always be considered in terms of the betterment of the education of our students. Where is the justification that the reopening will result in a better education for our students?

  • By concerned citizen, March 4, 2010 @ 7:10 AM

    Ms Fullerton,

    Since you “pay” for your benefits, please tell us how much you pay per month for your benefit package.

    I think $42,000 is extremely high for a starting teacher right out of college with zero experience. (as do many of the other districts by the looks of it)

    Again, I’m all for our teachers being paid compeitively with surrounding areas that are similar to us demographically. But, all I hear from Jan and Rfullerton is how our taxes are going up, yet your union was real close to striking last year. You refuse to look at the single biggest expense of our district and continue to justify salaries that are much higher than like areas. If it’s taxes you’re concerned with, all areas of the budget should be reviewed to make sure they are “in line”. (or is there another motive?)

  • By Jan, March 4, 2010 @ 10:18 AM

    Concerned Citizen: ( aren’t we all!) You keep wanting to go on and on about teacher salaries- they are what they are- and, if your view on what is happening in this district goes forward- you can add another 30 teachers to the list of bigger expenses. If I were you- why don’t you investigate the pension plan fund that is coming due– now that’s something to research. Teacher salaries will seem like a drop in the bucket compared to the pension plan payback!
    You ask “Is there another motive?”– what could that possibly be? The facts are out there- we didn’t event them. Our motive: to have board members who are fiscally responsible for our money, who don’t make rash decisions based on emotions and who enlighten the taxpayers of the ASD by answering some valid questions. We all have a right to know. Let’s deal with the real issues in this district- flagrant spending at this time when the pension plan fund is looming in our midst.I think we all need to focus on this one.If you are concerned about taxes- you haven’t seen anything yet!

  • By Jen16226, March 4, 2010 @ 10:32 AM

    SWilson…….very well put!

    I was thinking about this last night after my post to CC concerning the teachers salaries. The bigger problem, as I see it, is there are too many teachers. And that is because there are too many buildings open given our population.
    If the board had left Elderton closed for a couple of years, they could have then looked to see what the advantages had been thus far with more selection of classes, how the students that had moved progressed, how the students that were already in the buildings with added students were doing and they also would have been able to put money in the bank.

  • By littlewoman, March 4, 2010 @ 3:57 PM

    Actually, as far as the teachers go most of the teacher were reabsorbed back into the district. And with the reopening of EHS those that were reabsorbed will most likely have the chance to go back to EHS. You say too many teachers, but one of the union leaders were up there asking for more teacher to help with making class sizes smaller. More class selections would work if they actually let the kids take them. There were kids turned down for many classes they wanted to take because there were too many kids already taking those classes. What are you people going to complain about when you the taxes don’t go up because EHS is reopened and renovated?

  • By rfullerton, March 4, 2010 @ 4:23 PM

    Concerned citizen:
    Again I ask “what do YOU think would be a fair wage for a first year teacher?” You seem to not want to answer that question. I guess you are seeing what you want to with the salaries given….again Homer Center starting $52,000, Indiana $51,000 and I don’t even want to get back into the ending salaries of all of them again. If you think that teachers are worth no more than a mere babysitter let’s do some calculating…..babysitters make between $5-15 per hour. Minimum wage is $7.25/hour sooooo let’s go poor economic area, use $3/hour. Okay that said, a medium to small class at KJHS is around 21 students. At $3/student that would be $63/hour of babysitting. Students are in school for 7 hours, that makes $441 /day then they have 180 days per year with a final total salary of a babysitter (without a degree or any teaching going on) $79,380 per school year. Would that be more fair for a starting salary for a teacher? Just think about it.

    Jan: Ditto on your post.

  • By rfullerton, March 4, 2010 @ 4:26 PM

    OOPS, forgot about “how much do I pay for my health insurance?” That would be nothing. I am on my husband’s plan and do not use ASD insurance so in fact I save the district money because, as incentive not to use their insurance, they reimburse me a fraction of the total cost. (sorry I don’t know what the actual fraction number is but I can find it if you are that interested). Now tell me, how much do you pay for yours?

  • By Jan, March 4, 2010 @ 5:11 PM

    Again littlewoman:
    Your comment:Actually, as far as the teachers go most of the teacher were reabsorbed back into the district. And with the reopening of EHS those that were reabsorbed will most likely have the chance to go back to EHS…..apparently you don’t read the reports much. Not all teachers were absorbebd when Elderton closed– the statement was made that 30 new teachers would have to be hired when/if Elderton re-opens.
    We don’t make up figures- we go straight to the sources-we’re interested in giving the taxpayers the truth and not a sugar-coated rendition of “Solak says”.

  • By Jen16226, March 4, 2010 @ 7:50 PM

    Littlewoman,

    If the board would have left everything the way it is for a year maybe 2, they could have then had very good analysis to use to gauge if the kids are doing better or worse, what other classes could have been added and how much money we truly did save.
    As for the teachers asking for help. I am going to take a shot and say being this was the first year for all of the students together, it was more a scheduling issue than anything else. Could that have been hammered out after this school year when looking at ways to improve? Absolutely.

    If the teachers will be “reobsorbed”, as you stated, then why did the district state we need to hire 30 teachers?

    As to taxes not going up….are you serious?
    Let’s see…..hire 30 more teachers, renovations that are under plancon’s guideline which means we will be paying cash, and a HUGE pension payment. Do you remember when alot of people had those balloon mortgage’s? They would pay the absolute minimum possible on them, even though they could have been paying a bit more so they could get their balance down, and then BAM…..here is that final payment and it is 20X more than what you were paying per month.
    That is the only analogy that I can explain what is about to happen with the pension plan. With Elderton reopening, renovations there and just the everyday expenses throughout the district, we are not going to have alot in savings. How are we going to pay over $6million dollars next year on that pension? Tax hike. Whether they do it this school year(since they informed the state that they do not intend to go over the 4.1% that would have triggered a referrendum) a little bit or next year a lot more. A hike is a hike and this area can not afford it.

  • By Mike Fichthorn, March 4, 2010 @ 10:07 PM

    Littlewoman,
    What planet are you from? This board is already talking about a tax increase for re-opening Elderton. What makes you think there won’t be one.
    Concerned Citizen,
    You can’t have it both ways. You claim the teachers are getting paid an obscene amount of money, yet your brother in law wants to re-open Elderton which would add 30 or so of these so-called high priced teachers.
    To quote Judge Judy…If it doesn’t make sense..it isn’t the truth. Nothing this majority has done has made sense from Day 1. Re-opening and Elderton, trying to turn a successful program at Lenape Vo-Tech into half day and talking about closing KT..just to make sure FC remains standing the the mythical super high school isn’t built.
    Hollywood couldn’t script something this senseless.

  • By concerned citizen, March 5, 2010 @ 8:06 AM

    Rfullerton,

    I pay $200 per month for my family…it’s nice that you get paid to not take the ASD supplied insurance. That’s about $5,000 isn’t it?

    Fair teachers salary…

    I’ll say $34,000 is a fair starting salary, which seems to be more than adequate in other districts.

    The babysitter comparison is always hilarious. Is that really what you want yourself compared to?

    Here’s what I get…

    190 days @ 8 hours per day

    1520 hours per year.

    $65,000 / 1520 hours

    $42.75 per hour with 10 weeks paid vacation and another week at Christmas. (maybe that’s why you have time to make your tinfoil hats)

  • By Mike Fichthorn, March 5, 2010 @ 10:12 AM

    Concerned brother in law,
    Your figures are wrong Mr. People Person.
    What you failed to add was the hours every night and weekend that the teachers take away from their families to grade tests and reports. There’s a lot more than 8 hours a day involved. Again you have the facts but ignore them and spin them to make your argument look better.

  • By ToddLuke, March 5, 2010 @ 10:13 AM

    @ CC

    They bargaining unit has a contract and these salaries were all negotiated and approved by the school board. We need to move on to solving some problems that are not contractual.

    Bargaining units all share information about salaries and benefits when they negotiate. The association presidents in this county meet monthly to discuss the region and compare notes. You have to look at the total compensation package to really compare numbers. Those districts with low salary numbers can make up for that in many ways. If you only list instructional days on the scale but pay teachers for in-service days off the scale, to the average person it would appear there is an inequity in these salaries but in reality they all have similar total compensation packages.

    Summer classes are starting soon, so if you want what teachers have, head on over to the University and get a teaching degree.

    Let’s move on to helping students.

  • By Mike Fichthorn, March 5, 2010 @ 12:12 PM

    Concerned citizen you sure have an axe to grind with the teachers. I’m beginning to think this is more of a personal attack than someone who truly cares about what’s going on here.

  • By concerned citizen, March 5, 2010 @ 3:34 PM

    Come on Mike. You’ve done nothing but make personal attacks since you’ve been here….Read every one of your posts. They are all attacks on someone.

    My issue isn’t with teachers, it’s with the people on here who say they are for the poor taxpayers, but want the most they can get for themselves.

    I’ve already agreed EHS should remain closed. (even though I feel it was railroaded through when it was closed, which is no different than it was done this time.)

    At least I can say I came on here with an open mind and not a specific agenda…

  • By Mike Fichthorn, March 5, 2010 @ 4:06 PM

    Open mind? You’re delusional. You have an agenda and it’s the teachers. Read your posts.
    Markilinski attacked all of the students and faculty of the Vo-Tech. One of my sons graduated from the Vo-Tech, another is going there now.
    Do you have children? Probably not from your posts. When and if you do, when someone belittles their hard work and accomplishments, you do tend to fight back.
    I know this clown and his family. The arrogance is beyond comprehension. He doesn’t respond to fact and figures.
    If you read most of the posts, I don’t think too many others are jumping on your teacher bashing bandwagon.

  • By rfullerton, March 5, 2010 @ 4:19 PM

    Concerned citizen:
    It is plain that you have some awful issue with teachers. I am not going to try and explain myself any longer. I think I will give up beating that dead horse. If you are really interested in how much I make, what I do, how I do it, what I had for breakfast I am happy to discuss it with you if it will help the issues at hand…It will not, so let’s move on. My concern is with taxes. I live in Dayton Borough where there are a significant number of people on a fixed income. Property values here are nil. These people cannot afford tax increases. The Borough has been very cautious even increasing water and sewage bills for the same reason, but the fact of the matter is, taxes are going to increase regardless, but do we have to exacerbate those increases with needless spending?

    BTW: The tin foil hat was a gift. Do I need to report to you the gifts I get from parents and students…………will that help?

  • By Jan, March 5, 2010 @ 6:22 PM

    Concerned Citizen: what specific agenda do these people, including myself have? What we are trying to make people realize is that this current board of 6 is spending money recklessly and using our tax dollars to do it. It has nothing to do with “poor taxpayers”, it has everything to do with being fiscally responsible with the money on hand. There are only two issues here that need to be addressed. How can we give our students the best education possible while being fiscally responsible. This board is acting irresponsible. If it was a matter of just re-opening a school, we may not agree, but we would live with it. But now, we are talking about a country that is in a recession, the state is in shambles with trying to find money to keep it going, the county has no industry and we have more schools that we can take care of- and student populations have decreased.The last board configuration made an unpopular decision to close Elderton but at least it made the decision based on recommendations and studies,and could also justify a savings of tax dollars. IN all the years I’ve lived here, and we’re talking a long time, I’ve seen schools closed and consolidated, and up until now,. Elderton has skated by ( sorry to use that analogy.) That school was not railroaded- it just took awhile to determine that it was time for it to be closed.It would be great if every little community could keep their school- but we aren’t a rich county, people are struggling and the last thing we need to be doing is making it harder for people to live here.

  • By Mike Fichthorn, March 6, 2010 @ 12:08 AM

    Concerned citizen. I mistakenly thought you were a relative of Mr. Markilinski. Your misinformed numbers and jabs at teachers sounded a lot like this wonderful human.
    While everyone may not agree with my comments, at least they know who they came from.
    It takes a lot of guts to post anonymously.

  • By Ruscoe, March 6, 2010 @ 9:10 AM

    Can somebody please tell me or explain to me the entire platform for the People for Progress?

    I do not think we have seen anybody actually post on these messages as a member.

    Are they strcitly a group dealing with the educational system in the ASD? Do they have opinions on the state of affairs for the county?

    What is their long-term plan or goal with the ASD?

    I understand that they want to be fiscally responsible, but that can be defined in many different ways. I was hoping to see their long-term goals or plans for the district.

    I also think we need some type of group for the county level.

  • By rfullerton, March 6, 2010 @ 5:38 PM

    Ruscoe: I wish I could help you but I am not a member of PFP and I think (I am not completely positive) that there isn’t really a PFP faction any longer. Please corrrect me if I am wrong.

  • By DANBOY, March 6, 2010 @ 9:50 PM

    Somewhere in the past my better half or I may have signed a membership list so I can not say that I am 100% sure I am not a member of HERO,HERC,PFP, AFLAC etc. I do know that I belong to a SILENT MAJORITY that has sat on their hands way too long and hope that we did not decide to get involved when it will be too late.

  • By futureconcened, March 6, 2010 @ 10:44 PM

    H.E.R.C. ACT took over the PFP website: ASD – News.

  • By Jen16226, March 7, 2010 @ 8:36 AM

    CC…..
    You stated “My issue isn’t with teachers, it’s with the people on here who say they are for the poor taxpayers, but want the most they can get for themselves.”
    Do you know part of WHY I do not want my taxes raised and would like better educational AND occupational opportunity in Armstrong County? My prime example is my husband. 13 years ago he was laid off from Eljer and he took a job where he travels 7 months out of the year. He has been at this job for going on 13 years now. Anyone that knows my husband knows darn well that man would walk to the end of the earth for both his kids and mine(we have 5 between us). Multiple times, he has driven through the night in order to get to one of their events.
    How fair is it that here is wonderful father and husband that is forced to be gone for 7 months of the year because there are no jobs? And it is taking a toll on him.
    If taxes are raised, that will force him to have to miss out on even more….he would have to try to stay on the road for months at a time.

    Ruscoe….

    You asked “Can somebody please tell me or explain to me the entire platform for the People for Progress?”
    I honestly can not answer that. I do know a couple of people involved with them, however I am not.
    Futureconcerned stated “H.E.R.C. ACT took over the PFP website: ASD – News”
    No. We took over Terry Rupp’s website, not PFP’s. I believe they had their own seperate website.

    I can, however, answer what HERC-ACT stands for! I am a proud member of this group.

    We want local government to be held accountable. We want them to show their hand. If they are responsible for taxpayer money, then they need to answer questions to ALL taxpayers. If they are responsible for taxpayer money, then they had better be fiscally responsible too!
    If they are responsible for education, then EDUCATE and find reasons why they are failing test scores and stop bickering and start finding solutions.

  • By DANBOY, March 7, 2010 @ 10:29 AM

    Is it just me or is Elderman on vacation or wrapped up in his Legal Briefs?(OUCH)

  • By rudytuesday, March 7, 2010 @ 11:02 PM

    Or maybe he’s afraid that his computer will be subpoenaed……..

  • By JMPC, March 7, 2010 @ 11:47 PM

    Concerned Citizen,

    For all of us who have had the pleasure of having Rfullerton motivate our children to try harder and do better, your attacks on her seem more than absurd. Teachers like her give their heart and souls to make a difference in the lives of each student. I am not here to defend her. She doesn’t need my help. She, and many other teachers, earn every penny they make. In her case, I can tell you first hand that you really can’t put a price on the difference she makes every day.

  • By rfullerton, March 8, 2010 @ 3:38 PM

    JMPC: I don’t know who you are but thank you for your kind words. To anyone who isn’t a teacher those are the words that make the job absolutely worth doing and absolutely worth fighting for. This is what motivates me….how about you?

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